Thread: Being Outspoken: Need V Cost

I know that this is what happened in my situation. The person starting all the rumours has become well known for making personal vendettas out of what are merely professional differences of opinion. She also has been known to manipulate her friendships with promotors and people in high places to get them to blacklist whoever she has decided to sabotage at that time. The downside of that seems to be that some promotors have now grown wise to this and feel as though they have been used and that perhaps their friendship with this person wasn't a real friendship at all. I know several people who have questioned whether this person would have anything to do with them at all if it weren't for their position and status.

On the upside though, I have met some of my favourite people in the world through this community and I think a few bad apples don't spoil the whole barrel.

PS. I'd just like to say how brave I think everyone is who has spoken out (either publicly or directly to the offending party) about people doing crummy things in burlesque. I don't know if I would have the guts.

Certainly some food for thought here! I can't believe that some promoters and venues treat performers in such a bad way and then turn on them. Not only is it incredibly unkind but it's not very professional. I applaud anyone who stands up for their rights as a performer. Just because you are 'stripping' for a cheque or cash-in-hand does not mean you are not entitled to be treated with the same respect as any other employee!

When it comes to bringing up a complaint within the community, however, I think one has to be careful whether they are raising the issue for the benefit of others or for personal reasons. I almost got my fingers burned a few years ago when I was to afraid to confront someone who had been causing problems for me. I came on here and had a whinge when I should have stood up to her and explained why I was upset. Needless to say, this person saw what I had written and we had a massive falling out. I lost money and some friends because it appeared as if I was the trouble maker....perhaps I was

I'm less outspoken on forums now and always take what people say with a pinch of salt. I got drawn into a huge catfight between a very well known burlesque company and a smaller group. Luckily I saw what was going on and distanced myself from those who were causing the fight. Good job I did or I wouldn't be posting this now

Originally Posted by RedSarah

with great power comes great responsibility !! - superman

Noooooo! Tis Spiderman ... or more accurately, Spiderman's Uncle Ben! ^_^

I find this a very interesting thread and I'm really not sure what my opinion is on this topic. I know that in my personal life I can often be very outspoken, often without meaning to be, and that it has affected relationships with people, in both positive and negative ways. And then at other times I feel like I'm not being outspoken enough.

On the professional side, I'm definitely not outspoken enough. I have let myself be taken advantage of a couple of times. I trust to the idea that the truth will out, or assume that if I make a fuss I'll be the one who is adversely affected. It's a very difficult thing to stand up for yourself; in some ways I think it's probably easier to stand up for others. The mister though, is extremely outspoken. He's not afraid to tell anyone what he thinks and he's certainly not the type to let himself be told what to do, bullied or taken advantage of. And he's a pretty darn successful businessman. So maybe there's a lesson for me there. He certainly seems to think so, he's encouraging me to be more like him ...

Originally Posted by Emerald_Ace

So should I have said something? I’m still not sure whether it was the right decision.

I suspect that this is a situation which perfectly highlights that there is no 'right answer'. To me, this cannot be a simple 'black and white' scenario because each case is made up of a multitude of complex variables (relationships, previous history, current influencing parties, circumstances...). So in a way, you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Therefore, the decision you make must be based on the weighing up of likely outcomes and probability of consequences.

Originally Posted by Diva Holliwood

...I have also learnt the power of the internet. I have refrained from outing bad promoters since as I feel it is not fair to MOB or other forums as their name gets dragged into it as well.

Thank you! The amount of times we get called up, emailed, have bizarre things spread about us as an outcome of a 3rd party dispute we know nothing about, is high. In fact, I keep note of these as anecdotes so we can see the 'funny side' of it. Of course, this is not published anywhere... so there is no speculation required here.

Originally Posted by Red Sarah

Red Sarah - with people looking up to you I think there is a responsibility..

Yes, I agree with you Sarah - especially if a person seeks to be in that position and claims to be an authority or teacher or 'go-to person' of any kind.

Originally Posted by Amelie Soleil

...It affected our projected income but I felt we had to make a stand. We explained this to the venue managers and were told we were idiots; would never work in that city again blah blah..

I've heard this (and seen it in emails) so many times. Often performers forward emails, or call us to us to gain perspective, in confidence. It's really sad that some people think they have this kind of influence and that they have a right to abuse it like this.

I can confidently state that in my experience those who have tried this kind of bullying are without exception, the very ones who do NOT have any such influence at all (legends in their own lunchtime) but they would very much like to have it and so intend for the victimized performer to believe it is so. I think that some people really do believe that 'if they act the part, they become the part'.

Originally Posted by Amelie Soleil

Sadly, some of those performers have appeared for a second time at those shows; I wasn't rebooked (not sure I would have wanted to) but I wonder if those performers learnt anything at all or just have no self-worth?

I think that validation and ego play a huge part in these situations, both ways. Egos can be bruised and the outcome is usually either to lash out at another and try to assert authority (or superiority) that isn't there or, alternatively clam up and 'take it' with a belief that it is somehow deserved. We're an emotionally complicated species

Originally Posted by Khandie Khisses

- Being outspoken is not a bad thing but its how you do it....Get all the facts before launching into something and never surrender your morals.

Absolutely, this highlights why credibility is so important. Banging a drum may attract attention but it doesn't mean that people will march to a non-existent, erratic beat.

You can easily examine the credibility of someone's particular story by seeing how consistent they are over time with this story and their other stories and claims. Sometimes a person's promo material compared to reality is all you need to see.

Of course it also helps to consider who their close associates have been over time, i.e. are their associates respected and consistent in their support of said person? If someone seems to rely on regularly recruiting newcomers to garner support, one has to wonder why.

Originally Posted by Joe Black

- truth comes out eventually i suppose!

Yes I believe that 'truth will out to those who seek it'. I suspect it's the 'seek it' bit that people worry about really - as not everyone is rational enough to seek out the truth and instead, prefer to believe a convenient version (from someone close/useful to them) or a sensational version (because it's gossip).

Originally Posted by Beatrix von Bourbon

A recurring theme in all of these responses seems to be the difference between business and personal matters.

A wise observation methinks. I also observe that what happens (especially in the entertainment industry) is that the 'profession' sometimes comes about because of a personal need for validation and ego massaging. Hence, the two are inextricably linked at the core of a person's cognitive-behavioural cycle. Their entire identity, their whole world is based on a delusion and woe betide anyone who threatens it's validity.

Originally Posted by Emerald_Ace

She also has been known to manipulate her friendships with promotors and people in high places to get them to blacklist whoever she has decided to sabotage at that time.

I've also seen promoters manipulate new performers in to thinking X, Y & Z about their chosen 'enemy' du jour. It seems to me that they do this with the desire of using a deliberately misinformed performer as a mouthpiece to other newcomers. Sadly, when performers are taken advantage of in this way they are made to look rather silly to others and alienate themselves from genuine parties without realizing it - but of course, they cannot see it themselves because their promoter (a new best friend holding their fragile hopes and dreams of stardom in their fist/ hand) is also massaging their ego (with the other hand)....

i.e. If someone is bad mouthing another for no particular reason that affects you ask yourself.. a) Why are they telling me? and especially if they are using it to 'lay down the ground rules' for your relationships b) Could they have something to gain by this?

Originally Posted by Claudia Atlantis

...however, I think one has to be careful whether they are raising the issue for the benefit of others or for personal reasons....I got drawn into a huge catfight between a very well known burlesque company and a smaller group. Luckily I saw what was going on and distanced myself from those who were causing the fight. Good job I did or I wouldn't be posting this now

Yup - it's all about perspective and a willingness to gain it. If you liken burlesque to any other part of the entertainment world, the bigger fish will always have the minos who resent their presence - and wish to feel validated by aggravating a response. Any response will do if they can't get the one they want.

E.g. The amount of bizarre conspiratorial rumours that fly around about massive music companies like Sony, EMI et al really doesn't affect their ability to sign up the best talent and remain as coveted leaders. Those who carp and calumniate tend to be those who perhaps didn't make the grade, were rejected as an artist or are aware of their own lacking.

It seems there are people who haven't actually done anything to merit reward but feel they should have it anyway. They often like to make themselves look important to others, so that they can feel important. So, if they can't ally with a bigger fish and usurp their person of choice there, they'll pretend to be a valid rival.

Originally Posted by Fleur du Mal

It's a very difficult thing to stand up for yourself; in some ways I think it's probably easier to stand up for others.

I find this too. I also find that the quandary of what to do (or not) often boils down to a feeling of empathy for all parties involved (both offending and injured). Perhaps it's misplaced consideration on my part but I like to be as considerate and open to resolution, as possible, always. Why would anyone not be?

I believe that it takes a lot of will power and personal strength to not retaliate to bullies and keep up good will even under extreme duress. I have a system where by I issue ONE polite communication which requests a cessation of their actions, states that no further discussion is required and wishes them well for the future. If it continues, I have done my best for diplomacy.

If rumours are spread and harassment continues, at least I can stand my ground and say to anyone who is seeking the truth - 'show me my crime'.

I think there is also lot to be said for reading between the lines. A dignified statement of fact showing restraint of emotion has more impact than any rant. i.e. it is often what is NOT said that holds power. Of course, this doesn't mean that everyone should make wild speculation and draw conclusions from non existent clues. I suppose, again it's a measure of perception and ability to reason that should be called in to action - not one of sensationalism and a desire for drama.

So with response in mind, how do you think situations are best handled?

Some quotidian examples with inherent pitfalls as I see them:

a) 'Fight fire with fire' - X says an untruth about Y so Y says something about X. You risk escalating the malice and intent. You also risk looking bad yourself and two wrongs don't make a right etc...

b) 'Ostrich syndrome' - stick your head in the sand and hope that if you can't see what's going on, it'll go away. You risk being perceived as weak and therefore 'deserving' or even desiring further bullying.

c) 'Launch the Lawyers' - for every snipe and mutter, there is a legal letter to be written. Expensive and heavy handed. Lawyers take money for mailing standard letters whether or not they think you are 'right' or even have a case.

d) 'Talk to the Management' - ask someone you trust to act in your best interests. You risk arguing with this person over how it is to be handled and resent their 'interference' when they can't achieve a peaceful outcome.

e) 'Mutual Support' - Seek similar experience and advice from others to gain perspective. You risk been perceived as a 'tell-tale'.

f) 'Name & Shame' - Out them publicly. You risk increased abuse and threats. You risk dragging others in to the situation.

Each has their pros and cons I suppose and perhaps again it's all about measured responses and consideration of intricate variables. I think that using any one as a blanket response is seriously unwise and unhelpful.

I know that I'm always inclined toward being an Ostrich and seeking mutual support if it gets worse but sometimes other options need to be considered.

Your thoughts?

I tend to Ostrich and then seek support from outside agencies. For example, if I'm having problems within the burlesque world I'll ask for support from people who have no vested interest in it. That way I get more objective advice and support, but don't risk dragging anyone else into something they have no reason to be part of

in a recent situation, i found mutual support - then to ostrich, worked beautifully.
probably won't always work out like that though. but it was interesting to see its positive effects.

i think each and every problematic situation in life is totally unique and therefore requires a totally unique response and coping strategy...i believe that most people tend to use a varied combination of responses determined by the nature of the situation and individuals concerned,and as mentioned before there will always be ups and downs to each and every outcome... xxx

Generally I stick to ostrich and close moral support. Usually when something bothers me and I post straight away I regret it later and wonder whether I should have worded it differently or not posted at all. Leaving things alone for a while really lets you see the situation with a clear head and gives you time to decide the best way to deal with it....and 9 times out of 10 it will have worked itself out already

I am finding mutual support works for me now. This way I can also get a broader view in the situation. I have friends/ performers and promoters i can take to one side and talk to now that I trust. Its meant I will not speck out now without all the facts. I will also not believe all the stories I hear. What Kittie said about people telling you odd stories for there own benefit rings very true for me. I don't want back stage tittle tattle it bores me, but if someone that I count as a friend has been badly treated I will stand up for them.
I think you have to react each to each encounter as they come and work out what is the best why of handling it for you to get the best results.
Diva x