Thread: Ethical Promoter/Performer Dilemma - Getting Snowed In

The Silk Stocking Striptease Show was originally booked for the 7th of February 2009. We got bumped by a big music festival and so, by pure fluke, we avoided the awful weather - but it has raised an ethical debate with myself and Angel LaVey as to what we would do if something like that happened. Our questions are:

A promoter has booked a performer to work the show - the performer has purchased their tickets in advance as it's cheaper. On the day of the show they are unable to travel to the show because of severe weather conditions. The promoter has to find a replacement at short notice. Should the promoter pay the original performer their travel, their full fee or nothing at all?

The promoter cancels the show because of snow. The promoter has to refund the audience. Should the promoter pay the performers even though the show was disrupted by severe weather conditions? Whats should the promoter pay the performers?

The promoter and the performers are all able to get to the venue and put on a show despite the weather. Audience members decide they cannot go due to risk of being snowed in at the venue, they then request a refund or that tickets get transfered to the next show. What is the promoters obligation to the audience members who did not or could not attend?

WARNING

Warning: This is an Old Thread This discussion is older than 60 days. information contained in it may no longer be current

Obviously I'm not a burlesque promoter, but I've run events before where I had to book speakers and performers, and as no one else has yet had a go at answering these, I thought I'd have a think about them - but if a proper person comes along with some answers then please ignore mine:

Originally Posted by Gehenna

A promoter has booked a performer to work the show - the performer has purchased their tickets in advance as it's cheaper. On the day of the show they are unable to travel to the show because of severe weather conditions. The promoter has to find a replacement at short notice. Should the promoter pay the original performer their travel, their full fee or nothing at all?

The way I see it is, the performer hasn't done the thing they've been booked to do, which is perform, ok through no fault of their own, but still they haven't been able to deliver on the thing expected. I would say (and please shout me down everyone if I'm wrong) that it would be up to the performer to try and get their money back from the train/bus company as they didn't get the service they'd paid for. I don't think you should be responsible for paying them a full fee (unless your contract stated such) as they didn't perform, and they're 'professionals' or at least this is their 'work' so it's up to them to sort out their travel problems with the travel company......however, I might mellow slightly depending on their circumstances and how much you'd want them to perform for you in the future by perhaps paying something towards their travel costs IF they couldn't get a refund. But I might be totally out of line here.

Originally Posted by Gehenna

The promoter cancels the show because of snow. The promoter has to refund the audience. Should the promoter pay the performers even though the show was disrupted by severe weather conditions? What should the promoter pay the performers?

I think if the performers are there ready to perform but the show is cancelled then the promoter should pay the performers their travel expenses as they have been ready and willing to perform and through no fault of their own have not been able to. Again, though I would use my discretion on whether I'd pay the performers any more than this on their circumstances and whether you want them back, but the hard-hearted me says they haven't performed and you haven't go money from an audience for their performances so they wouldn't get paid more than travel expenses (and perhaps a box of chocs). If the performers hadn't made it in, then my answer to the first question would apply I think. Again, I'm probably totally wrong.

Originally Posted by Gehenna

The promoter and the performers are all able to get to the venue and put on a show despite the weather. Audience members decide they cannot go due to risk of being snowed in at the venue, they then request a refund or that tickets get transfered to the next show. What is the promoters obligation to the audience members who did not or could not attend?

It's their loss. I've bought tickets to the cinema before and not been able to go because of a last minute emergency and there was no refund or transfer available from the cinema box office. I suppose it's different if you sell all your tickets beforehand rather than on the door. If it were me and I'd sold all my tickets before the night I might say the odd audience member I'd try and sell their ticket on the door if anyone tried on spec but I couldn't guarantee it. But I think it's their problem - if they can't make it, it's not your fault.

But then I'm a hard-hearted bitch

I don't feel able to comment on the first two dilemmas as I think a lot of it should depend on what is agreed in the contract.

As for the third - the audience one. I agree with Tempest. If you decide not to go to a show you have paid for that is your choice - you should not expect a refund. I wouldn't expect a refund if I couldn't make it to a show. If the show was cancelled then yes, but if it does happen and I don't make it why should I get a refund?

Originally Posted by Gehenna

A promoter has booked a performer to work the show - the performer has purchased their tickets in advance as it's cheaper. On the day of the show they are unable to travel to the show because of severe weather conditions. The promoter has to find a replacement at short notice. Should the promoter pay the original performer their travel, their full fee or nothing at all?

I think this depends on individual contract. But in general I think that this is the performer's problem. Their inability to travel has not been caused by the promoter, and so the promoter has no responsibility to cover any loss.

Originally Posted by Gehenna

The promoter cancels the show because of snow. The promoter has to refund the audience. Should the promoter pay the performers even though the show was disrupted by severe weather conditions? Whats should the promoter pay the performers?

How much notice has the promoter given? We shall have to assume that it is a short notice cancellation. Assuming the performer has not stated a cancellation fee in their contract (in which case whatever was agreed to and signed should be upheld) then the performance fee should not be paid. If the promoter agreed to cover travel costs and the performer would have been able to travel that day, the promoter should cover any losses, as if the transport services where the performer is were not disrupted, they probably wouldn't be able to get a refund. But my thoughts are that if the venue was that snowed in, the local transport links may have been out of action anyway, leading to a cancellation of trains etc., meaning the performer could not have travelled there anyway and possibly leading to a refund on tickets - meaning the promoter would not need to pay anything as the performer had made no loss.

Originally Posted by Gehenna

The promoter and the performers are all able to get to the venue and put on a show despite the weather. Audience members decide they cannot go due to risk of being snowed in at the venue, they then request a refund or that tickets get transfered to the next show. What is the promoters obligation to the audience members who did not or could not attend?

If the audience members decide not to go then they need to take the loss. If the show is still going on then it is the audience members' decision to stay at home. It is not the promoter's responsibility to cover any losses, as they are still providing the service paid for. At the end of the day, the promoter cannot be held responsible if the area the particular audience members live happens to be snowed in.

Apologies, my brain can't see through all the type above but gehenna it would depend on individual contracting which you would have to honour depending on the contents of the agreement.

In all FK contracts we have a wet weather/extreme weather clause in which we would require payment of all expenses & 75% of fees.

In regards to Tempest's comment re: travel expenses being the performers responsibility; if cancellation is given before the train leaves; then you can often get a refund. Otherwise it's very unlikely (i used to work for GNER) leaving you with the bill. Plus for some performers leaving say Scotland for a Portsmouth gig they may have arrived the night before meaning there would be no chance of refund; it would have to be on contract or case by case.

Edd and I performed in the snow at an outdoor event on Sunday for Chinese New Year; de-rigging in the freezing cold in a tiny costume wasn't very fun and neither was dancing on an icy stage but sometimes you have to go ahead.

This was with a wet weather clause so we didn't need to do the gig at all but we wanted to. Often performers and promoters will try much harder than you imagine to achieve a result in these circumstances.

Also, this is why promoter's insurance exists and what it is for - I think some events policies will even cover audience refunds.

I appreciate smaller events might not ALWAYS want this but its not as expensive as you would think on an annual basis. You can also buy one-off event insurance.
We've always used insurance on our own promoted events (non-burly) and will be again this summer.

xx

Originally Posted by Fleur du Mal

I think this depends on individual contract. But in general I think that this is the performer's problem. Their inability to travel has not been caused by the promoter, and so the promoter has no responsibility to cover any loss.

ooh fleur i have to disagree here I'm afraid; it is the promoter's responsibility since they requested the performer to attend the event and to buy tickets to do so.

This is why it is best to have your promoter pay travel for you in advance; then if you are flaked out on by a bad promoter you don't lose out and if the event is cancelled; the promoter can arrange refunds as quickly as possible.

It is much easier for a promoter to cancel six train tickets and hotel rooms than wait for performers to do so and run the risk of being invoiced at a later date so it actually works out better for the promoter too. Another advantage is knowing exactly all your expenses before the show takes place, using coupons or multiple tickets to get the best possible deal.

Again this is just how we work; all our contracts are modeled on equity standard and agency templates so it is common practice to have wet weather clauses.

xx

A lot of it depends on individual contractual arrangements, and anything else that has been agreed in advance (eg, who is responsible for the travel costs, and whether they are on top of, or in addition to the appearance fee.)

However if none of those details are expressly provided for, in principle, I broadly agree with Tempest.

Except the bit about being a hard-hearted bitch (Even though I am. Professionally.) It's business. And letting people have a refund over circumstances of their choosing (even if not of their making) starts to set a slippery precedent. You ain't a cheridee I had Evanesence gig tickets for the the day my boyfriend fell off his motorcycle. Gutted? on both counts, yeah. But still my choice to stay at home and make tea.

And let's face it, the weather's been unpleasant, but unless you live in the sticks, not that bad...

Originally Posted by Amelie Soleil

ooh fleur i have to disagree here I'm afraid; it is the promoter's responsibility since they requested the performer to attend the event and to buy tickets to do so.

Well you've been in this game for much longer than me and know more about it, so I'll bow to your knowledge.

But I will ask - does that change in the event that the performer requests to work the show, rather than the other way round?

Originally Posted by Fleur du Mal

But I will ask - does that change in the event that the performer requests to work the show, rather than the other way round?

Good question; I personally don't see a difference between who asked who to perform at the gig. If a booking has been made, the promoter has weighed up their options, decided to offer those expenses and that fee therefore the performer's presence has been requested at the event.

Just out of interest, do many promoters on here have public liability insurance?

xx